Hi all bought my orca tl450 nano on the 17th. £149 with stand. Also bought the red sea max starter kit which comes with salt, hydrometer, calcium buff, ph buff, ph test kit ant nitrate test kit in a big bucket for £45. also bought about 2 inch worth of coral sand (chose this over live sand as i will not be introducing anything in it till after xmas so cycling it quickly is not necessary). Think that was it for that visit. Set tank and stand up, filled with sand, used tap water ( i know flame me now but i was told it didnt really matter for my initial fill) used about 1 1/2 kg of salt and dabbled about with it a bit for the next few days and got it around the 1.025 level on the dodgy hydrometer.
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment

Left it to cycle for ten days then bought 5.5kg of Live rock from my lfs, sadly they must be waiting for a delivery as there wasnt much available but i did try to choose the four best bits and one even had a little mushroomy thing on it (pics to follow).
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment

By the way i am a complete noob, my knowledge of the hobby has been through these forums, advice is always welcome but my main aim with this diary is to try 'reefkeping on a shoestring' without obviously distressing animals, inverts or corals.

Hi Mate,

Not flaming you, you have been very badly mislead.

Empty the tank, as soon as you can, wash the sand and get some ro and add the salt and get the rock back in with skimmer running etc add some RowaPhos to take care of the Phosphates that are now undoubtadly in the rock. Tap water is absoltuley no good for Marine Fish keeping. The levels of Phosphate and Nitrates not to mention other nasties in my tap water are off the scale of any test kit.
RO/DI Water has a TDS reading of 0, my tap water has a TDS reading of 360ppm.

If you are lucky and the rock etc does not die in the tap water you will suffer badly from nuisance algae etc for as long as the tank is set up. The longer you leave it the more nitrate and phosphate will leach into the rock, thus the harder it is to get rid of.

You have asked for advice, above at this point is the best advice I can give you at the moment.

It is possible to run a reef on a budget, but RO is not something you can go without. If you search on here you will find people have enough problems with nusiance algae killing off thier livestock etc without knowingly adding the fuel to thier tanks.

The rock by the way looks good, you may want to remove about 1/2 of the sand, it can trap detritus later on and unbalance the levels further down the line.

Hope that helps good luck mate, keep us updated.

Gary

Well i was told it was fine but any other water that goes in there must be RO. According to my nitrate tester it is fairly low, rock only been in there a day and it seems to be thriving with little beasties crawling around it and i think the little brown thing is possibly a zoa? i appreciate the advice but i'll take my chances, I have the stock skimmer in and working. Sorry i'm not knocking your advice just pioneering.....maybe in the wrong direction, thankyou all the same, will post again soon.

Here is the little brown thingy, has a whitish stalk of 3/4(thats 3 quarters lol) cm and he retreats in the dark.Click to view attachment (sorry the pic aint excellent)
Seen a lot of little critters crawling around and possibly a crab (maybe hermit) he's hid in a lip and i cant see him properly due to the curvature of the tank.
Here's some rock pics.Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment
And side shots.Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment

Hi Mate,

Not a problem. Its your tank after all.

Good luck, I hope it goes well.

Gary

Sorry if i came across funny, i full y appreciate that you are looking out for my best intentions. Just seen a small (1 inch max) black crab keeps crawling near my little arch, everytime i turn to see him he scuttles back into a nook, turned the light on him and saw that he was indeed a crab as it took a while to work out that he was a crab at first, if it makes any difference nothing will be goingin there till after xmas and i will keep posting here whether it goes well or not. I personally can't understand why the LFS (a much reputed one) would give me bad adice when i was willing to pay for the RO water there and then?

Definatley seems a bit funny, especially as he could have made a bit more cash out of it.

Normally though the advice would be test fill with tap water, empty clean and then only use RO.

The black crab sounds similar to a couple I used to have in mine. Brilliant clean up crew, until it got very large and took a liking to my fish.

Look in my thread "First Venture into Marine" for images to compare to.

Still havent got a definite ID, but pretty sure its a type of xanthid crab.

Cheers

Gary

Hi Noob,

Im with Gary re the water

If the advice given by your "reputable" LFS was to use tap water, I would look for another LFS if I were you!

The most important thing in a MARINE tank is the water (IMO), and there is nothing better than RO water to start off with!!!!

You say that you are a complete noob and that your knowledge has been gained through this forum, yet when someone gives you sound advice, you choose to disregard it and "pioneer" instead.

Im all for pioneering, but using tapwater is asking for trouble.

Ask youself, why do ALL marine fish keepers use/advise RO water?. I would suggest that someone before us has pioneered and found that tapwater is full of rubbish.

Regards
Steve

crab seems to be predominantly black with some green mottling on his back, surely its too late for the water now is there anything i could do to cheat the system as such, all my water changes will be RO water, and will prob be 20% weekly for first 6 months then 10%

Thanks for the replies guys.

ps. Arrowhead crab? Don't see much about these guys whats the verdict in nano's?

BTW the previoussly named mushroom thing i think is a zoa

Hi Noob,

I find this a good site for info.


http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_di...&pcatid=616


and this one.

http://www.xtalworld.com/Aquarium/hitchfaq.htm


Steve

Just been back to the LFS about the water issue and there reason for allowing tap water in a starter tank is that it can sometimes create a bigger cycle over a long time as such. RO water is essentially pure water so can struggle to kick off an effective ammonia cycle, whereas tap water can provide with loads but will obviously need longer time to clear up, but i must use RO for anything else otherwise i will just keep producing mini cycles every time i change water.

These are not my words, they are the LFS.

My plans (long way off, don't worry) for stocking are,

False percula
Firefish (love these guys)
And a shrimp goby (as in shrimp and goby, love the idea)

The substrate is probably only an inch high, kept it like this as i understand the shrimp and goby burrow, is this right or should i still lose some sand?

Unfortunately the missus fell in love with the baby boxfish, someone please tell her why this would be a bad idea as i've already tried.

Hi Mate,

The idea about the cycle with tap water is rubbish. The cycle in a marine tank is different to freshwater. In a Marine tank you do not need to add an ammonia source as such, the live rock already has the nitrfying bacteria colonies in it. The cycle is caused by die off on the live rock, and as such the ammonia is added from that, the less die of there is the smaller the cycle etc. Using tap water will not make the cycle better or longer in any way, it is just likely to cause more issues later.

The baby box fish is a bad idea in a tank that size, it would probably out grow the tank in about 3-6months. They grow to over 10inches. also they can expell poison when frightened or spooked. In the ocean this will deter the predator in a nano, this will kill everything including the box fish. I can understand where you wife is coming from, I would love one my self, but not until I have a much bigger tank.

Gary

I knew about the whole size thing with the boxfish and i did tell her that, weren't sure whether it was poisonous though. #You gotta admit though that they are the coolest things ever when they're whizzing around as a little 1cm cube. What about the reality list lol.

ps. the fish dude that told me about the tap water is one of their two marine guys??

They seem reluctant to sell me anything, as i asked about any additions, eg. a powerhead, some more live rock (i have 5.5 kg), some lr rubble.

Hi Mate,

Where abouts are you based, someone may be able to point you in the direction of a good LFS in the area.

Gary

Ok didnt want to name drop but my LFS is porton aquatics, i think they came secongd in PFK's south west or something like that, Is that crab gonna be any trouble or an excellent freebie, any comments about my planned fish?

HI Mate,

Got to be honest, I have never come across them before.

In terms of the stock list, it sounds fine, as long as the are added in seperate stages. I would say add the clown last, they can be very territorial.

The crab, as with all crabs, is a personal choice. Mine was fine for about 18 months, and then he developed a taste for fish. All crabs are opportunistic ominvours.

Cheers

Gary

Yeah i suupose as long as he has things to nibble on he won't nibble on my fishies, the clown ain't my idea it's my daughters she said she watched some film about an orange and white fish?(lol) me personally i'd love a black and white one, but of course that's not nemo as my wife says. (she's totally against the tank at first but i think after seeing the stuff on the rock (which we've been camping out next to, to spot our hitchhikers)and seing all the colourful fish she might be slowly getting won over)

Sorry guys not really worth any more pics until something actually happens i suppose. Porton aquatics is in porton down, in wiltshire if that helps.

Sorry looking for more stocking advice, is a pistol shrimp the only one that forms the shrimp goby relationship? I also like the look of bangai cardinals, is there a conservation issue with these, does anyone have any other reccomendations for a nice community tank

Got a bit of a brown dusting on the substrate in the corner furthest away from the spraybar, rock starting to brown up slightly too, gonna leave it a week then get my levels checked, this sounding ok?

HI Mate,

The brown dust is Diatom Algae, this is a normal part of the cycle.
When you add clean up crew, they will get rid of it for you.

What test kits are you using.

Gary

I will confess i am actually still waiting to buy a test kit as all i have is the two test kits from the red sea starter kit which are nitrites, and ph/alkalinity (which i guess are both farely useless at the mo. I thought it was diatom, as usual on the orca's my moon lights have stopped working, and i saw a second crab only about 1-2 cm across similar colourings to the one at the top will add photo but you can't really see much of it. One of my biggest copepods (i beliee) shed its skin/shell/carapace, and i may possibly have a small red mushroom growing near the bottom of my tank (looks slightly raised from the rock), i'm guessing my next step now is to test for ammonian, nitrites, nitrates before any cuc go in

Getting a very nice brown coating across the substrate and a few patches on the glass, i'm guessing this is right, going to probably get my water tests done at the LFS this weekend just out of curiosity, also need to get myself something for the algae on the glass, ten gallons of RO for top ups and next water change and a bucket for mixing it. Is it worth me buying a heater for mixing my water as it will only be fairly small amounts of water for changes or will i be fine with the whole bucket in a bucket of hot water method? I have no idea what CUC i would be looking at. I know i plan it to be a reef tank with some hardy corals, am i right in guessing corals added last thing or any time really (obviouslly once params are good and cuc have settled). And is there any snails to specifically look for/ avoid (i heard turbo's can be clumsy and big for a nano)

Thanks in advance
craig

Hi Mate,

I woudlnt bother with a heater, unnessasary for a nano IMO. I just put the bucket into the sink and fill with hot water, it is up to temp in about 15-20 minutes.
Use the money for something else. You will find there is always something you will want.

Corals can go in once parameters are stable.

Snails, These are what I use.

Nassarius Vibex, Detritus snails excellent for stirring the sand bed. (Small)
Astrea snails, a version of turbos, very good not really clumsy.
Super Turbos, (www.fishmansfrags.com) Super algae eaters
Fighting conch, excellent sand cleaner. (Might be a bit big for your tank)
Cerith Snails, good cleaners sand and glass. Small

Just pick the smaller turbos, they dont tend to grow too quick IME.

Gary

Brilliant thanks for that i noticed my lfs last time i was there just seemed to have quite large turbo's but i'm sure i have seen astreas too, hermits am i ok to mix varieties or do they fight? Starfish too do they have any place in a nano bearing in mind i still want my pistol (i think) shrimp and goby pair (it could actually be the harlequin one that does the starfish eating not sure) remember i only have the smaller orca. To put more meat on my stocking plan it will probably be one clown, one goby,one firefish (not sure though as i hear they are very shy and i probably won't see him, but they do look cool, so this one could be subject to change), a pistol shrimp for my goby, not sure if i could have another shrimp in there to be honest, feedback please. As i said earlier a starfish could look good, I would love a clam but i'm 90% sure it wouldnt be suitable for the size of my tank. I'm glad i've managed to get the idea of an anemone out of my head too.

Hi Mate,

Starfish really arent suitable, most grow to 12inches across.

The harlequin Shrimp does feed on Stars.

You can mix hermits, but you can have issues, there is no gaurantee. I tend to stick with the small red leg hermits, they are good scavengers and they stay small. If you put spare shells in the tank they tend not to attack each other. Normally when they attack it is becouse they are "shell jacking"

If you want a firefish, make it you first addition do it has time to acclimatise with the surroundings. They are quite shy, this is supposed to help them be a bit more open as such in the tank.

Gary

Just visited the LFS went mainly for a water test, also bought 10g of RO water, a new hydrometer (dog ate my other one....don't ask) and a substrate vacuum. so i'm going to prep some water up today and do a water change tomorrow.

My readings by the way were

Ammonia-0
Nitrites-0
Nitrates-0-5
Ph-8.1
Phosphates-0
Me-Very happy

Was looking for CUC but the only snails they had were giant turbo's (seriously these guys looked like african land snails) They did have some nice blue hermits, but decided against these as they seemed pricier than the red ones (which they didnt have none in stock), so was very good not to buy anything

Did a 10% water change today everything looks a lot cleaner now and the little zoa possibly seemed happier, also cleared up all the diatom form my substrate and gave the rock a bit of a hoover too, glad my original hydrometer broke as i think it was very inaccurate, new one seems a lot better, as my tank was running a bit of a high sg reading so i used water with a slightly lower than normal reading to hopefully average it out

My salinity levels rocketed from my water change, due to the crap red sea hydrometer i got with the starter pack, (the water in the tank was too salty not in the water change) so i've been changing a litre a night with fresh water to hopefully gradually lower the sg reading rather than shock the tank with a sudden one. Came down the other morning to find a moulted shell of some kind, i'm really hoping its one of my crabs (which i havent seen since) rather than the dreaded mantis (which keeps haunting me in the back of my mind), cant see where it'd hide though the rock hasnt got many big holes in it. My sg reading is now about 1.026 at the mo should be 1.025 after this water change i'll do after posting this, so i'm looking forward to a trip to the LFS tomorrow to hopefully get some CUC, pics to follow

Hi Mate,

Hydrometers are very innacurate to be honest, Salinity Refractometer is the way to go.

Gary

quick trip to the lfs today, lovely corals but had to be strong as funds are tight this close to christmas, instead bought three turbos and a dancing shrimp, (only had blue hermits in again) dont worry i will add to this cuc each week, pics will follow tomorrow, let them settle

If your still unsure about your SG then i would possibly advise getting your LFS to test a sample with a refractometer untill you can get your own, snails for me have been a nightmare, even with long slow acclimatisation. Given your admission of your fears with the swing arm you may be dooming your snails with rapid changes in SG accidentally, or by OD'ing the FW changes.

As Gary said a refractometer is the way to go long term but till then getting the LFS to test a sample each time yougo in is no harm (and usually free).

HTH
Rikki

well its reading 1.025 and it will stay at that now, consistency and all that. but i will take some down the LFS when im next there, they are all settling in anyhow

A couple of pics like i promised, not too good for two reasons, firstly the iphone is rubbish and secondly my shrimp is a scaredy cat
Heres a full shot including a closer look at the snails (aster turbo's apparently)
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
And heres my less than photogenic shrimp
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

hi doobydoo,

the bubble algae on the back of the tank can be a nightmare, i had a small area with it which in jsut a small space of time overtook the back wall, when removing it be careful not to burst any of the bubbles or you will send spores all over the tank.

Also another observation from the pics is your diatom bloom and hair algae, they do look very much in excess to what mine did and other reefers on here, quite possibly due to the P04 and N02 that you introduced with the initial water fill, a great way to rid hair algae that gets too long is to manually remove it as after a certain length snails will just not be able to munch it. Over time you'll notice areas getting longer that the snails jsut can't mow down and then manual intervention will be needed.

I like how you have made the little cave area in the middle, it'll become a perfect hidey hole for nervouse or shy residents.

Keep us updated
Rikki